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The Auto bailout should we do it.?

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Poll Question: Should we bail out the big three auto companies?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
0 [0.00%]
9 [40.91%]
3 [13.64%]
8 [36.36%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [4.55%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [4.55%]
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Ad nauseous View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 5:33am
So what is your angle on this issue?
One good thing about TV-you could always turn it off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neil R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 11:04am
All that money will do is satisfy the union contracts, how about let them go into Chapter 11 and toss the contracts out the window and start over.
 
Worked for Delta.
 
Oddly enough with the "imminent collapse of the US auto industry" no one notices Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and BMW humming away in Tennessee, Alabama, Ohio, South Carolina, and others.
 
I thought "corporate welfare" was supposed to be a bad thing
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 11:10am
What will President Obama do whem his "Tax and Spend" Policies turn the Recession into a Depression, and with so many people not working the amount of Revinue from Taxes declines to the point where there won't be any money available to dole out to "Entitlements" (That's ADC, Food Stamps, Medicare and Social Security)!
 
When this happens Heaven help us all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CatWoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 11:57am
This is a television related rant?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad nauseous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 12:02pm
well they've been talking about it on the TV a lot, so it's TV related, and I originally tried to get it into the political section but you can't do polls there for some reason. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 3:26pm
I think that many concessions need to be made by the unions if they want to keep working (via a bailout).  The average union auto laborer makes something like $73 per hour, while the non-union ones in the South make $49.  To me, $49/hour sounds like a great wage.  The UAW laborers seem to actually have power over their employer!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hootman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 3:32pm
Thor, both of those numbers include benefits, but it's still a really nice wage package.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

I think that many concessions need to be made by the unions if they want to keep working (via a bailout).  The average union auto laborer makes something like $73 per hour, while the non-union ones in the South make $49.  To me, $49/hour sounds like a great wage.  The UAW laborers seem to actually have power over their employer!
 
 
 
And if they get this second bailout loan, it'll be paid for by ordinary people maybe making $20/hour. F*ckem. Let them go under.
 
 

*General Motors Corp. CEO Rick Wagoner told the House Financial Services Committee that collapse of the U.S. auto industry could lead to a loss of 3 million jobs within the first year and ripple throughout communities around the nation.

In sometimes contentious testimony, Wagoner was pressed on when GM would run out of money if the loans weren't extended.

He said he couldn't say precisely, but that the company now was burning through "$5 billion each month."

Still, with the $25 billion emergency package, "We think we have a good shot to make it through this," Wagoner said. He said he anticipated that, if the package is approved, GM would qualify for about $10 billion to $12 billion of the money.*

If a company is burning through $5billion/month, what is another $10bil. going to do? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 10:52pm
I say give them the money, but make them restructure. Do what they would as if they were chapter 11 (at least as much as they legally can). They were starting to go in the right direction and were starting to turn things around, then the credit crunch hit. Give them the tools so they can kick some japanese butt in a few years time. If the japanese government gave toyocrap the money to start their hybrid program, why shouldn't our government do the same for our automakers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Skippy Skippy wrote:

 They were starting to go in the right direction and were starting to turn things around, then the credit crunch hit. Give them the tools so they can kick some japanese butt in a few years time. If the japanese government gave toyocrap the money to start their hybrid program, why shouldn't our government do the same for our automakers.
 
LOLLOLAnd just how were they turning things around, again?  Read a news article or two, Skippy.
This "loan" is to float the bloated pension/benefit packages of the union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 1:50am

If you go back to last winter, you will see that Ford and GM were saying that they had plans to complete their turnarounds in 2009, and if you looked at the numbers and the trends, you would see that they were on the right track. Who would have expected $4 gas AND a credit freeze within such a short time. Maybe one, but not both. Can you say "Perfect Storm?" They should be clear of most of the bloated pension obligations in 2010, problem is that they have to get to that point.

 
The real 800 pound gorilla is their reputation from the past. This is the difference between them and a company like Hyundai. Let's face it, Hyundai had some of the worst cars as recently as a decade ago (my sister had one, and it was burning a quart of oil at 70k), yet their sales have been on the rise since then. Why? Because many people never drove one and got burned by them. They were able to improve before their reputation was established. 
 
Now, quality in many of the domestic cars is now on par the the japs, and if the Volt is a success they will leapfrog the prius in being a true green car. But how many people are going to trade in their jap crap for an American car again, even if the quality is as good or better? Perfect example is the 2008 Malibu vs camry vs accord. Quality is the same, Malibu is a much sharper looking car, and is priced about 2k less. Malibu has them beat, but will a camry driver trade in their blandmobile? Probably not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N-Dizzle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 2:55am
HELL NO!!!

NO MORE BAILOUTS FOR RICH F*CKS WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS!!!   They dug this hole, let them dig themselves out.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 3:22am

Not all people who work for the auto industry are rich f*cks.

 

Here is some enlightenment from Jim Cramer:

 

http://www.cnbc.com//id/27647852

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N-Dizzle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 3:35am
Yeah, alot of completely innocent people will be hurt, but unfortunately we need that to happen if we ever want real change.   The people on top get away with whatever they want and are almost never held accountable.   Maybe the fear of more job loss will be enough motivation to keep the big shots in check.   If it's restructuring you want, first thing: KICK THE UNIONS TO THE CURB!!   Their greed dug part of this hole.   Where else do you find $25+ /hour workers whining about wanting to make more money?    From a financial perspective, I totally understand why so many are outsourcing and sending work overseas.    The suffocating demands of the unions and the petty "strikes" are hurting more than helping.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gretel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 3:58am
What happens if they get their money and they just piss it all away again??  Do we give them more and continue the vicious cycle of corporate apathy and ineptitude?
 
I think chapter 11 bankruptcy is the best option because they'll be forced to ditch the ludicrous $$$ UAW contract demands, retain the reasonable ones and trim lots of fat (i.e. redundant models, trims, etc).  I work in the pension business and frankly it's an antiquated retirement program that needs to be canned - unless retirement age is raised to 75.   Some retirees collect a pension payment for more years than they actually worked because people are living much longer than pensions were designed to pay. 
 
A bail out will only delay the inevitable demise of 1 or 2 of the "Big 3".  Ford has the best chance of surviving.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrTim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 4:30am
Nardelli (who ran Home Depot into the ground) is running one of them (so they were f**ked either way), and all 3 of them continued to make gas guzzlers when it was obvious that people were changing their driving habits due to high gas prices.  Bail'em out just because they continued to make a product people didn't want?  Nope.  Too damn bad.  Should have looked at what was going on in the real world instead of listening to their propaganda/marketing dept.
 
Now as far as the executive (over)compensation crap....
Where the fvck are the stockholders?  They have the power to change the board of directors, etc. if they don't like how the corp. is being run.  Those big bonuses definitely cut into the return on shares (especially when paid out even if the corp. loses money.  Simple contract fix, that), so any inaction on their part is their own fault.  Sorry, but gov't has no business telling a company what they can pay the people running it (especially since said gov't mismanages the money they're responsible for and gives themselves pay raises whenever they want.)  Yes, let the SEC/FBI investigate possible insider trading, but again, it goes back to the stockholders to keep an eye on their own investments....  So there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Starchild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 5:45am
Originally posted by MrTim MrTim wrote:

Nardelli (who ran Home Depot into the ground) is running one of them (so they were f**ked either way), and all 3 of them continued to make gas guzzlers when it was obvious that people were changing their driving habits due to high gas prices.  Bail'em out just because they continued to make a product people didn't want?  Nope.  Too damn bad.  Should have looked at what was going on in the real world instead of listening to their propaganda/marketing dept.
 
Now as far as the executive (over)compensation crap....
Where the fvck are the stockholders?  They have the power to change the board of directors, etc. if they don't like how the corp. is being run.  Those big bonuses definitely cut into the return on shares (especially when paid out even if the corp. loses money.  Simple contract fix, that), so any inaction on their part is their own fault.  Sorry, but gov't has no business telling a company what they can pay the people running it (especially since said gov't mismanages the money they're responsible for and gives themselves pay raises whenever they want.)  Yes, let the SEC/FBI investigate possible insider trading, but again, it goes back to the stockholders to keep an eye on their own investments....  So there!
 
I understand your premise here but I disagree on one part. When these execs come hat-in-hand to the gov asking for money, but don't have a well thought out plan on how they will actually spend the money to save the company and people's jobs, I think the gov should have a least a little say so.
 
One poster above made the point I was gonna make when I first saw the poll, about these companies burning through BILLIONS every month....seems to me this would be throwing away good money after bad!! I say fire these union workers unwilling to help sound-the-sinking ship and give the jobs to folks who are willing to work for less money. They can't have their cake and eat it too!! Again, it's like they are on a sinking ship and refuse to bail the water!!
 
I hate Ashton Kutcher with a primordial passion, but he was on Bill Maher's show the other night and he said, "Let the oil companies bail their asses out!!" For once in my life I agree with him!! These two groups with all their greed, worked hand in hand to create most of this mess. Big OIL ran up the prices on gas to feed the gas guzzling behemoths on the damned road. They made their beds, raped us in the ass in them, now they need to change the sh*t-stained sheets themselves!!
AW DAMN!!!! Wild Shot the friggin TV again!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad nauseous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 5:52am
Originally posted by Wold Starchild Wold Starchild wrote:

I hate Ashton Kutcher with a primordial passion, but he was on Bill Maher's show the other night and he said, "Let the oil companies bail their asses out!!" For once in my life I agree with him!! These two groups with all their greed, worked hand in hand to create most of this mess. Big OIL ran up the prices on gas to feed the gas guzzling behemoths on the damned road. They made their beds, raped us in the ass in them, now they need to change the sh*t-stained sheets themselves!!



good point

I wish I could vote on this issue, but alas it's up to our government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wild Starchild Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Ad nauseous Ad nauseous wrote:

Originally posted by Wold Starchild Wold Starchild wrote:

I hate Ashton Kutcher with a primordial passion, but he was on Bill Maher's show the other night and he said, "Let the oil companies bail their asses out!!" For once in my life I agree with him!! These two groups with all their greed, worked hand in hand to create most of this mess. Big OIL ran up the prices on gas to feed the gas guzzling behemoths on the damned road. They made their beds, raped us in the ass in them, now they need to change the sh*t-stained sheets themselves!!



good point

I wish I could vote on this issue, but alas it's up to our government.
 
YEP, Ad, that's code for, "WE PHUUCKED!!" Didn't know I could read your mind, did ya!! LOL
AW DAMN!!!! Wild Shot the friggin TV again!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FaithSF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 7:43am
Did anyone see the guys testifying in Washington yesterday and today?  They all took a private jet from Detroit to Washington . . . not ONE jet, but THREE SEPARATE JETS.  They do NOT get it.  Then one of the guys said he cut his salary to $1.  They asked the second guy what he's being paid, and he said he cut his salary in half.  They asked if he'd be willing to cut THAT down to $1.  He said yes.  They asked the third guy, and after not answering at all, he said, "I'm good where I am."  f**ker.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FaithSF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 7:46am
Originally posted by regulus regulus wrote:

What will President Obama do whem his "Tax and Spend" Policies turn the Recession into a Depression, and with so many people not working the amount of Revinue from Taxes declines to the point where there won't be any money available to dole out to "Entitlements" (That's ADC, Food Stamps, Medicare and Social Security)!
 
When this happens Heaven help us all!


Excuse me.  Obama isn't even in office yet, and you're blaming him.

I'm tired of hearing about the "tax and spend Democrats," especially when the last eight years have been "spend what we don't have!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad nauseous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 8:16am
Originally posted by FaithSF FaithSF wrote:

Originally posted by regulus regulus wrote:

What will President Obama do whem his "Tax and Spend" Policies turn the Recession into a Depression, and with so many people not working the amount of Revinue from Taxes declines to the point where there won't be any money available to dole out to "Entitlements" (That's ADC, Food Stamps, Medicare and Social Security)!
 
When this happens Heaven help us all!


Excuse me.  Obama isn't even in office yet, and you're blaming him.

I'm tired of hearing about the "tax and spend Democrats," especially when the last eight years have been "spend what we don't have!"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N-Dizzle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 8:34am
Originally posted by FaithSF FaithSF wrote:

Did anyone see the guys testifying in Washington yesterday and today?  They all took a private jet from Detroit to Washington . . . not ONE jet, but THREE SEPARATE JETS.  They do NOT get it.  Then one of the guys said he cut his salary to $1.  They asked the second guy what he's being paid, and he said he cut his salary in half.  They asked if he'd be willing to cut THAT down to $1.  He said yes.  They asked the third guy, and after not answering at all, he said, "I'm good where I am."  f**ker.




Let me guess, he's from GM?

That's why I say, F**k them ALL!   Let them BURN!!  Let them FAIL!!  I find it absurd that we should give large sums of money to corporations that can't handle their own money.   Sooner or later most of that money will be funneled to the criminal enterprise known as the unions.  

The way I see it: we need a bunch of RICH F**KS hanging from the front of the stock exchange for what they did to us with their greed.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N-Dizzle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 8:37am
Originally posted by Wild Starchild Wild Starchild wrote:

 
I hate Ashton Kutcher with a primordial passion, but he was on Bill Maher's show the other night and he said, "Let the oil companies bail their asses out!!" For once in my life I agree with him!! These two groups with all their greed, worked hand in hand to create most of this mess. Big OIL ran up the prices on gas to feed the gas guzzling behemoths on the damned road. They made their beds, raped us in the ass in them, now they need to change the sh*t-stained sheets themselves!!


I used to hate Ashton, until I saw that Bill Maher(LOVE that show!!).   I now want Ashton Kutcher to run for political office.   If they can let a wacko boob like Sarah Palin hold office, why not someone who makes sense and has good ideas like Ashton Kutcher?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FaithSF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2008 at 9:08am
Originally posted by N-Dizzle N-Dizzle wrote:

Originally posted by Wild Starchild Wild Starchild wrote:

 
I hate Ashton Kutcher with a primordial passion, but he was on Bill Maher's show the other night and he said, "Let the oil companies bail their asses out!!" For once in my life I agree with him!! These two groups with all their greed, worked hand in hand to create most of this mess. Big OIL ran up the prices on gas to feed the gas guzzling behemoths on the damned road. They made their beds, raped us in the ass in them, now they need to change the sh*t-stained sheets themselves!!


I used to hate Ashton, until I saw that Bill Maher(LOVE that show!!).   I now want Ashton Kutcher to run for political office.   If they can let a wacko boob like Sarah Palin hold office, why not someone who makes sense and has good ideas like Ashton Kutcher?  


I totally agree!  I love the show, too.  Unfortunately, that was the season finale.  But I was really impressed (and surprised) by Ashton.  And I thought that was the best idea, too.  After all, the car companies refused for years to develop any alternate energy cars, so the oil companies owe the automakers.


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