Focus on the Family - Tim Tebow |
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Synesthesia
Junior Executive Joined: 16 Jul 2009 Status: Offline Points: 2088 |
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I don't deny that Japan was pretty brutal during the war, but that doesn't mean there weren't innocent people who had nothing to do with such atrocities that were hurt and killed. I always feel bad for the people on every side who are just living their lives trying to survive who get hurt by stupid foolish wars which shouldn't exist in the first place.
Man, war is stupid on every single level. |
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Is this love big enough to watch over me?
Big enough to let go of me Without hurting me, Like the day I learned to swim?-Kate Bush The Fog |
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jeroboam
Honor Roll Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Location: Portland, Or Status: Offline Points: 2255 |
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That stuff is real about the Japanese. Archival videotape confirms it. They show a lot in mil history classes on bases.
sh*tty things. |
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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That's why people should fight such horrible regimes being put into place in the first place. Bad things can happen. Yesterday was the 65th anniversary of the bombing of Dresden. Had Hitler not garnered such widespread support, Dresden would never have been seen as more than a spot on a map. |
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Jimbo
Honor Roll Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 56960 |
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Bush's invasion of Iraq meets none of the first 6 criteria.
Ergo, it was an unjust war.
Ergo, the innocent people killed in it were murdered.
Ergo, the so-called "Christians" who support the war in Iraq support murder.
Hence, the bastardized interpretation of "Thou shalt not kill" that you described, allows them to support violence, love guns & still call themselves righteous & holy.
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...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender C'mon, man! Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States |
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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...he says, as Obama increases troops in Afghanistan.
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Jimbo
Honor Roll Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 56960 |
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And what does Afghanistan have to do with Iraq?
Had Bush concentrated on Afghanistan (where Al Quaeda & the Taliban actually were....) I wouldn't be bringing him up right now.
At least Afghanistan meets ALL the criteria you listed in your post.
The Iraq invasion met none.
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...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender C'mon, man! Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States |
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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Ok, yeah. Let's debate these wars. We haven't done that enough.
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Jimbo
Honor Roll Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 56960 |
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Well, it fits in the direction the discussion took.
Just vs. unjust wars & what constitutes murder, etc.
Just sayin.....
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...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender C'mon, man! Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States |
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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Yeah, I see how the discussion led here, but at this point, it'd only veer off in a direction we've gone a million times before.
At one point, I thought it'd be more interesting if the Hiroshima or Dresden sidebar took off. Well, maybe another time for that one.
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RichardCranium
Commercial Hater Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Detroit Status: Offline Points: 1466 |
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Why? Because it's easier for you to justify killing innocent people in those cases than in Iraq?
At least I'm not a hypocrit, in that I am pro death all around. How hard it must be to walk that fine line between pro-life/anti-choice/pro-death-if-God-sanctions-it.
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PaWolf
Revolutionary Hoary Ol' Chestnut... doncha know.... Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: GreatWhiteNorth Status: Offline Points: 40769 |
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(from 'Today's News')
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X <sig.nature>
"What we do for ourselves dies with us, What we do for others is and remains immortal." - Albert Pike |
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Tiz
Revolutionary I donated! Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 15588 |
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There was more to Hiroshima than saving lives invading Japan. Germany was working on The Bomb but never came close. Stalin knew about it but knew even less about them.
We, the U.S. wanted to show Stalin(our allie at the time) that we had one & wanted to show it.
But this should be in another forum, though.
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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Yeah, that's true, too. But Germany had already surrendered, and the Japanese were not surrendering, fighting on even at the expense of its own people (cutting its own nose off to spite its face, I guess). I think, by that point, America just wanted it over already. But, you're right...the dropping of the bomb is not only seen as the end of WWII, but the beginning of the Cold War, as well.
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Tiz
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Even before the bomb was dropped. His B29s couldn't hit the broad side of a city at their designed high altitude, so he changed strategy and went low level with napalm & incendiary bombs on Tokyo. No military targets.
Murder, war crimes?
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GENERAL CURTIS LE MAY. In air campaigns against Japan in 1944 and 1945, General Curtis LeMay of the U.S. Army Air Corps also defied the established wartime policy of the United States. That policy called for precision daylight bombing of military targets. Instead, LeMay retrofitted his planes with napalm cannisters (jellied gasoline), and dropped them at night over the northern suburbs of Tokyo, which were then the most densely populated areas in the world. Of course there were no men of fighting age present; there were only women, children, and the elderly packed in their wooden homes. On one evening, March 9, 1945, LeMay’s pilots were particuarly lucky: there was a brisk wind that carried the flaming napalm across wide distances. The heat that was generated was so great that the few people who could get out of their homes in time and jump into the nearest river or lake were boiled to death. General LeMay had successfully presided over the murder of 100,000 innocent people. He also had a quip to give to posterity: “There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders." When I participated on a war crimes panel at West Point some years ago, I brought up LeMay’s name as an arch war criminal. Despite my saying this in a room packed with cadets and high brass, no forcible action was taken against me. Perhaps the reason for the restraint was that the West Pointers were prepared for remarks such as mine. All eyes turned to one of the observers in the first row, an Army officer who was also a professor at West point. After standing up and establishing his credentials as a major student of aerial warfare, he sharply disputed my assertion that LeMay dropped bombs on non-military targets. He said that the women in the targeted area were active participants in furthering the Japanese war effort: they were darning socks and mending army uniforms. |
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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That may all be true, and we doubtlessly did some ugly things. But whoever wrote the above has to remember that WWII wasn't a war we asked for or wanted to participate in. The Japanese should've realized (and ultimately, did) that, sometimes, you need to be careful what you ask for. Their own innocent people ended up paying the price, but so did ours.
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Jimbo
Honor Roll Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 56960 |
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I took martial arts lessons at a Baptist Church for about a year when I was in high school.
It was part of an organization called "Judo & Karate for Christ".
A group of us went to a martial arts summer camp in Brownsville Ky. that was sponsored by said organization.
Great fun. Stayed in a big two story dorm type building with a swimming pool & a large open meadow where we worked out in the mornings & a covered outdoor chapel where we had church services at night.
Went to visit Mammoth Cave one day.
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...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender C'mon, man! Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States |
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PaWolf
Revolutionary Hoary Ol' Chestnut... doncha know.... Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: GreatWhiteNorth Status: Offline Points: 40769 |
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!!! HOLY KARATE!
Ol'Mule, THAT may be the funniest fuc'in thing I have read in AGES!! *I* think Nathan NEEDS to send you $50 and a six-pak!!! If HE doesn't, *I* will (PM me)...I'm STILL in tears!
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X <sig.nature>
"What we do for ourselves dies with us, What we do for others is and remains immortal." - Albert Pike |
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Moochamoocha
Honor Roll Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: New York City Status: Offline Points: 4637 |
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Ohhh...all of this is hurting my head! Make it stop! It's funny how a topic about a commercial has turned into a war debate. But around here, that's business as usual.
BTW, if Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't have had to bomb them in the first place. Can you say "asking for it"? |
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jeroboam
Honor Roll Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Location: Portland, Or Status: Offline Points: 2255 |
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There are some who speculate the war was close to ending before we did the bombing of both cities. One of the reasons we chose less populated cities as tokyo was essential to keep intact as disrupting the government of Japan was predicted to unleash chaos and warlord rule all over again. These again are analysts postulating their too little too late ideas and theories but there is data to support it. In the end, the a bomb was kind of a weird, "no really we mean it, the war's over" Like using a sledge hammer to kill an ant, I heard once (I don't really agree with that as Japan was pretty dangerous) |
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Ad nauseous
Revolutionary Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23601 |
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Wow this thread has veered off course!
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One good thing about TV-you could always turn it off
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Tiz
Revolutionary I donated! Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 15588 |
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Nagasaki was a secondary target as the original city was cloud covered. Pres. Truman was the one who OK'd dropping the bombs but also chopped Gen. McArthur off at the knees when he wanted to go into China and even use nukes during the Korean War.
As for this topic veering off, neither Nathan or the Mods(that never post here) have said anything.
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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...and then, Nagasaki became cloud-covered.
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Tiz
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Thought the bombadier caught a break in the clouds or something. The bomb did hit the outter edge of town.
They couldn't very well try to land back home with a live Abomb on board.
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jeroboam
Honor Roll Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Location: Portland, Or Status: Offline Points: 2255 |
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The crew on the Enola Gay could see people working in their gardens below.
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Thor
Revolutionary Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Location: Rockaway, NJ Status: Offline Points: 63906 |
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Whether or not the bombings were justifiable, I'd hate to have been the pilots/crew who dropped those bombs. I'm not sure I could live with myself. Oh well, moot point.
Enola Gay
Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark
Enola Gay, you should have stayed at home yesterday
Aha words can't describe the feeling and the way you lied These games you play, they're gonna end in more than tears someday Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't fade in our dreams away It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away |
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